Well the controlling cat thread is heading this way so we may as well have a separate topic for it...

Following the death of the poor young girl in Wigan yesterday I've listened to a litany of kneejerk opinions on the radio today, hardly any of which have been based on practicality and most of which were based on banning something that can't be defined.

Let me lay my cards on the table first and give one idea that may be helpful...

In the past thirty years I have personally owned four dogs, one at a time, three German Shepherds and a Golden Retriever, our first GSD was a bitch and she was safe enough for me to be comfortable to have her around when we brought our two baby daughters home from hospital, my kids grew up with her, they learned to walk by pulling themselves up on clumps of her skin & fur, she never showed a second of aggression but she was very vocal when anyone came to the door, the important thing being that she was not an alpha dog and would step aside when told to.

The second GSD was also a bitch but was uncontrollable, I'm not sure that she was mentally stable at all and we had her put to sleep at about 18 months as she was starting to be a very aggressive dog.

The Golden Retriever was a "complete" male and was, well, a Golden Retriever, totally placid and submissive to anyone, our vet once told me that he was coming across more and more aggressive Golden Retrievers and his fear was that a local breeder somewhere was doing this deliberately.

Our current GSD is approximately three years old, we adopted him from the Dogs Trust when he was 18 months old after he was picked up as a stray, he had been trained and obviously cared for and then for some reason thrown out onto the streets, more likely as I suspect he was tied to something and left as he has anxieties about being tethered now, at three year of age he is very obedient, not aggressive, has been taught by us not to bark at visitors or deliveries to the house and is a great example of the breed.

But here is the important bit - he was abandoned when, in dog terms, he was a teenager and would be in the phase that dogs go through where they are trying to establish the hierarchy in the family, a "teenage" dog will push the boundaries every day until they are happy that they know where they stand, if you have any sense at all then you'll make sure he knows that its at the bottom rung of the ladder - but at this age our dog was thrown out of a family and we don't know why but it is possible that he was starting to show some aggression, its possible.

Because he came from the Dogs Trust he was neutered by castration and its possible that that is why he is now so calm and a placid male dog - and thats the important point.

No licensing scheme, no chipping scheme, no owners training scheme, will ever suppress the natural instinct of a dog in a family setting, he or she (remember we had one terrible female) will have instincts to defend itself and its family and those instincts are magnified the more dogs there are in the house.

So, compulsory castration for male dogs - it would solve the unfetered, uncontrolled breeding that is so often bringing bad traits back into a dogs behaviour, would result in a much calmer male dog less likely to incidents of aggression and as a by-product would prevent testicular cancer which is as prevalent in male dogs as is mammary cancer in female dogs.

Problem is, where will the next lot of dogs come from?

Its simply way too easy for people to go out and buy a dog.

I don't know a lot about dogs but I enter a lot of properties (through work) in the Wigan borough (including Atherton) and sadly I am more suprised that the incident that occured earlier this week does not happen more often.

The amount of people that own these kind of dogs seems very common in the areas that I work and these tend to be in the more deprived areas of the borough, its not unusual for one house to have more than one dog (and more than one animal) and sadly the dogs are often left cooked up for days without being taken for regular exercise.

I have no issue at all with responsible dog owners but many dogs seem to be bought to help to give off some kind of macho image (why is it always the same breeds of dogs generally involved in these incidents?).

From registered breeders, which is how it should be, they don't have to be Kennel Club breeds (I detest that society) but they certainly won't be from the house down the street who's bitch has a litter every year because it makes a quick £1000 and pays for a holiday for them whether or not they are breeding in bad traits or breeding out good ones (because they don't really care).

Most of the Dogs Trust shelters rehome around 1000 dogs per year, some more, and for the past few years the population of those centres have been mainly bull terrier breeds and inter-breeds, and Jack Russells - take a look at any of them online - thats caused not by the puppy farming that rightly got a bad press a few years ago but by indiscriminate breeding from individuals who know that if they advertise a litter of "staffie" pups then they'll shift the lot on in days and make a few hundred quid for themselves and bollox to what they're doing to the breed or to rescue centres that pick up those same dogs a few months later.

Are you a burglar?

Not brave enough

Why didn't you have your retreiver de-nadded if you feel so strongly about male castration?

My dog's whole and will probably remain so. Apart from the fact I couldn't take him to the vet to have a procedure I wouldn't wish on myself, my mate has a big soft labrador who, since having his balls off, now barks at anything and everything that moves. Something he never did while he still had his goolies

Our dog is soft as sh**e and is great with our grandchildren, but we wouldn't dream of leaving him alone with them. If the boys tease him he can only respond in one way, so we don't risk it.

One of my favourite line in Drop the Dead Donkey, when trying to identify what is a dangerous dog:
"If it has short legs, broad shoulders, and an aggressive temperament, the dog it owns will be a pit-bull!"

What they should do is have a cull of the chav owners. That way no one would ever want one of the aggressive, macho-cult status symbol breeds that are usually responsible for maulings.

If they won't do that, then simply eradicating the breeds is the way to go. They were bred for their aggression and fighting prowess so it doesn't matter if someone has a nice one, you can have 'nice' tigers who could be trained to walk passively on a lead and act happy and playful around young children

not all staffies are "devil dogs" .
one near us is owned by a lady in her 70s. he s a great friendly dog , my molly, collie cross is more aggressive than he is
He s a ginger colour and called BIX...........
the most aggressive dog weve encountered since we ve had molly ( nearly 7 years) was a huge male chocolate labrador and a female rottie that attacked molly and she got up and beat the living daylights out of the rottie.the choc lab won against molly but she wasnt injured just shook up.

Its funny how things turn out sometimes. This morning was just like any other till my wife rang me at work to let me know the local vets faebook page had details of a dog that would be put down tomorrow if nobody wanted him.
Anyhow we're about to become the owner of a two year old cross between a staffy and something else - probably a labrador going off appearances. Took him for a walk tonight seems a bit excitable but otherwise a nice dog - kids are made up. I'll probably be back to ask some advice from the dog owners on here in the next few weeks lol.

So? They were bred for their aggression and fighting. You can find tigers that would be perfect house pets. But would you?

Any dog that is badly treat could turn out top be dangerous regardless of breed.

I dont really know the answer because virtually everything you try will have some flaws in it.

I do think that the law should be changed so that owners are responsible for their dogs.

I do not know all the details of the case in the news and can olny comment on bits that have ben reported but

As i understand the woman who owned the dogs that killed the girl knew they were dangerous ( although not dangerous breeds) as did all the locals but did nothing.
She should be liable for their actions because her negligence was a contributory factor in what happened. Even H & S law maybe appropriate

Even a financial penalty although it does nothing to help this poor girl and her family would encourage owners to have to accept some reponsiblity for their pets.

Its something that I did seriously consider and consulted the vet on when he was younger actually, at the time the vet suggested that he should be a little bit older and from memory it wasn't recommended for young puppies before they'd fully developed, my motivation for it was after losing our first GSD through secondary cancers after mammary tumours were found in most of her teats, something that is greatly reduced in spayed females, the risk of testicular cancers in males is as high as mammary tumours in females apparently.

There's quite a good article about the subject here [urlhttp://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs[/url which highlights the fact that its not a guaranteed answer to male dog aggressive behaviour, or what we should really call defensive behaviour, all I can report on is what I find in my own castrated young male GSD, he is perfectly socialised around other dogs, does not show any aggression towards other dogs when he is off the lead in our local park, indeed he will prefer to ignore or take a wide berth around other dogs and when one runs towards him he'll show passive behaviour, with humans he is totally submissive - just to underline this he is now a large male and weighs around his full adult weight of 40kg, if he pulls on the lead then you know about it and the females in the house won't walk him on the lead because of that, potentially, and if aggressive, then he could be very dangerous indeed as could any large breed dog including the "soft" breeds (see my earlier vets comment about retrievers).

On national news last night they interviewed a trackie-wearing, near-neighbour of the unfortunate girl, who admitted to owning a Rotty x Japanese Akita. He admitted his dog was aggressive and for that reason was kept locked in the garden and only came into the house when he was present. For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would want to own such a dog.

Our sprollie is as soft as a brush, he shares the flat with cats, a cockatoo and bearded dragons, with never a cross word between them. Any strange footsteps approaching bring an immediate protective response, he growls when we first get a new postman but sits at the door wagging his tail on any subsequent visit. He seems comfortable with his place in "our pack". If I'm not around, he does whatever Emma tells him but if we're both in the flat and she gives him an order, he'll always look to me for confirmation. I walk him around town without a lead, he stops and sits at each kerb without prompting and will not move until told to "walk". I won't let Emma walk him off the lead, simply because she's a fooking airhead, whereas I am constantly looking ahead for other dogs, traffic etc. If he sees another dog approaching he usually stops and looks to me for instructions.

No, neither can I, and its organisations like The Dogs Trust who end up picking up the pieces of irresponsible breeding like that when the owner decides after six months that he doesn't want this toy anymore.

Last August. My daughter was attacked whilst in our local park by two dogs who then ripped our pet springer spanial apart in front of her.
She had the two dogs taken by the police because of a pending court case which is next Wed.
She has now got two more dogs and is walking them around the same park.

Something has to be done.

And the governments answer to all of this? Microchipping!! From 2016 every single dog will have to have to be compulsory microchipped, which in principle is a great idea, every dog will have its details stored in him so every single dog will be traceable.....or will it? Owners sell dogs, owners move on, dogs get passed around and details will not be changed on the database. The databases also charge an admin fee to change details too.

Common sense above all else is what makes a good, responsible dog owner. 5 dogs in a small house, 2 of them "large" breeds is just not sensible. I love boxers, I adore them, have done since I worked in a vets and used to see loads, but I know boxers are not the right breed for me, mainly because of my condition, I just don't have the physical strength to train or walk them, so I chose a small lurcher and a cross staffy/collie.

Ban puppy farms, make breeders be registered and monitored, make sure the bitch never has any more than one litter a year and is neutered as soon as she is too old, spay and neuter every stray/shelter dog and you might get somewhere.

I've also said in the past to own a dog you should have to by law, go on basic training courses and learn the basics of training and the very basics of dog behaviour (something which I am very interested in and read up on myself anyway).

My two are well behaved, they are not usually around children, but if they are I make sure they are well supervised. They have passed their Kennel Club Good Citizen bronze award and training never stops, at home or while we are out. They still bark at anyone who "dares" walk down the drive but thats ok with me, being at home alone during the day when they bark reassures me, but thats where it ends. Once I invite the person who "dared" walk down the drive in the house, the barking stops, they have a greet and treat and then its back to what they do best....sleep!!

I know plenty of dogs which are the same breeds as the ones in the news, and they are well loved, well balanced, good natured dogs, two american bulls near me are daft as brushes, wanting fusses and to play with other dogs. The problem lies when you get inexperienced owners who have no idea of the breed of dogs needs but see them as "status" dogs that as long as you feed them cheap food from the local supermarket and let them out in the "yard" then they will be ok.

Breeders are the problem. All breeders should have to be registered with minimum standards for them to keep their license. Strict and draconian penalties for unregistered breeders.

A good breeder will be breeding out any aggressive qualities. Bad ones are specifically breeding them in. A good breeder wouldn’t sell a large or demanding dog to someone out at work all day or without the land and space to accommodate them. A bad one doesnt care.

There is no way that, as was reported, 5 big game dogs should be kept in a small house in an urban area like that. It is totally unsuitable to start with. Even if those dogs were properly bred, even if they didn’t have the genetic problems which are growing in those breeds because of poor breeding, Even if they were well trained or even not trained with the intention of being aggressive that environment is asking for trouble.

I’ve had big dogs, I have had absolutely huge dog, Sadly we lost my 15st newfie just over a year ago. He was huge, over 6ft 5” on his hind legs, nieces and nephews would pull his hair, fingers in his face, tugging on his ears, never a murmur. Because he was a well bred dog, with a suitable environment who found his place in the pack. He was a very very safe dog, so safe that he ‘worked’ with old people.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about big dogs, nor are there inherently ‘aggressive’ dogs. What there are bad breeders, bad owners, and very occasionally, vocal and demanding dogs whose role shouldn’t be ‘family pet’. If a dog is out of control, it isn’t the dogs fault. At some stage there is a human to blame.

Dogs themselves are not the problem. Uncontrolled breeding, which promotes all manner and psychological and physiological deformities in the breeds is the problem.

If you have controlled breeding under some form of licenced breeder scheme, then those traits can be bred out of existence (as the KC are now starting to do with show dogs under Fit for Life).

If you want a dog, you either buy from a licenced breeder or you adopt from a rescue centre, where in both cases the dog will have been health/temprament screened before they get near your home.

If you buy from private individuals either online, or off the notice board at work, or through the classifieds in the paper you often have absolutely no idea what you're getting and what its genetic lineage is. It's the equivalent of picking up a homeless person off the street and inviting them to come and live in your house.

They already are. Animals Act.


I don't know what circumstances of negligence have been alleged. What's she supposed to have done? I haven't read of any allegation of any "previous" by any of teh dogs yet they don't seem like young dogs so on what basis? (I would agree that having young/youngish kids alone with a pack of bull mastiff/terrier-type dogs seems like exceptionally poor decision making but expect that it happens on a widespread basis on housing estates up and dow the land on a daily basis.

If she has fallen foul of the requirements of the Animals Act then she IS liable. (That is, to pay compensation). But it wouldn't be much, as the life of a young child isn't worth much in civil law.

If you mean she should be prosecuted, I don't know the full facts, it would seem the CPS have decided no offence has been committed. The criminal law on this subject has been a bit of a shambles for a while, though, but the government has seemingly little appetite to improve it.


No, not at all relevant.


I doubt it would make any difference, in the same way as kids TWOCCing and getting killed does absolutely nothing to teach a lesson to even their mates let alone future TWOCcers.

There is no answer to this if you are going to allow people to keep dogs. As others have pointed out there are that many dogs and that many owners that, whilst you can discuss licences, chips, etc. it seems plain to me that there isn't a cat in hell's chance of the resources which would be needed to adequately implement and constantly police and enforce any such scheme being available now or in the foreseeable and there is absolutely no point in schemes if there isn't the money to run them.

Better criminal law is possible, but I don't know that even a better framed criminal law could have avoided this tragedy.

My sister has a rotweiler (bitch) and a 2 year old son. I wouldn't think twice about leaving him alone with her to play in the back garden. He can poke her in the eye and she doesn't even flinch. If someone came into the garden and was a threat to him, she wouldn't let them get near him but wouldn't be dangerous - he probably wouldn't even realise anything was wrong. She is walked a minimum of twice daily on decent length walks. She is great with other dogs.

In contrast, my next door neighbour has a border collie. It's hardly ever walked now and sits in the window all day barking. When she is allowed out into the back garden she goes mental. When it was young I used to walk her as a favour and look after her quite often and she was difficult to control on the lead because her owner doesn't keep her disciplined when they used to walk her.

We took both these dogs for a walk together and the border collie tried to attack the rotweiler and every other dog at every opportunity. I hadn't walked the border collie for a couple of months and only offered becuase the owner seemed to have stopped walking her altogether. It was so viscious that I haven't walked the border collie since. It is brought up in a house which I would describe as crazy and it has rubbed off on the dog.

I have seen both grow up from pups and I feel I can definitely say that the dogs are how they are because of their owners not their breeds.

Poor girl what a shocking and terrifying way to die.

What was that girl doing in that house while the owners weren't there? Has anybody asked that question yet? Nah, open season on dogs again, it seems.

She was with the owners daughter apparently and they went to a neighbours to warm up some food and she returned first. The friend returned shortly after to find her mate ripped to shreds by the dogs. HTH Columbo!