Just read an article in a kiwi paper about the woman on the tram in Croydon or wherever it was. www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=10770034 it goes on to mention that white working class communities are becoming fed up and mentions a report, so I found it: www.jrf.org.uk/publications/work ... ghbourhood This is fresh in my head as someone brought up the telly programme "Love thy Neighbour" on another thread recently, where the racist character was a white, working class, northerner who was a staunch Labour voter. So if Labour no longer represents sections of the british white working class back home. Who does?

Just read an article in a kiwi paper about the woman on the tram in Croydon or wherever it was. www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=10770034 it goes on to mention that white working class communities are becoming fed up and mentions a report, so I found it: www.jrf.org.uk/publications/work ... ghbourhood This is fresh in my head as someone brought up the telly programme "Love thy Neighbour" on another thread recently, where the racist character was a white, working class, northerner who was a staunch Labour voter. So if Labour no longer represents sections of the british white working class back home. Who does?

Was she actually 'working class' in the strictest sense, or a member of Britain's white scum underclass who often seek to justify their inactivity and failuire to contribute to society in any tangible way by blaming 'immigrants' for their lives of laziness?

Actually, both the principal characters in Love Thy Neighbour were as racist as each other.

Quote ="Rooster Booster"Just read an article in a kiwi paper about the woman on the tram in Croydon or wherever it was. www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=10770034 it goes on to mention that white working class communities are becoming fed up and mentions a report, so I found it: www.jrf.org.uk/publications/work ... ghbourhood This is fresh in my head as someone brought up the telly programme "Love thy Neighbour" on another thread recently, where the racist character was a white, working class, northerner who was a staunch Labour voter. So if Labour no longer represents sections of the british white working class back home. Who does?'" NZ must be catching up on the rest of the world, that story is barely a couple of months old, maybe someone left a newspaper on an incoming flight. However... The idea that there is a "working class" in the 1960s sense and whether or not it votes Labour or not is rather outdated, most people have to work to earn their way in life, most people need loans and mortgages to pay for houses and cars, very few have family wealth to fall back on and label themselves something different to "working class" if indeed they label themselves at all, and there is the crux - I don't know anyone who labels themselves as being of a certain class at all these days and its been a long time since I saw a Labour party candidate refer to themselves as the party for the working class.

Quote ="Rooster Booster"Just read an article in a kiwi paper about the woman on the tram in Croydon or wherever it was. www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=10770034 it goes on to mention that white working class communities are becoming fed up and mentions a report, so I found it: www.jrf.org.uk/publications/work ... ghbourhood This is fresh in my head as someone brought up the telly programme "Love thy Neighbour" on another thread recently, where the racist character was a white, working class, northerner who was a staunch Labour voter. So if Labour no longer represents sections of the british white working class back home. Who does?'" NZ must be catching up on the rest of the world, that story is barely a couple of months old, maybe someone left a newspaper on an incoming flight. However... The idea that there is a "working class" in the 1960s sense and whether or not it votes Labour or not is rather outdated, most people have to work to earn their way in life, most people need loans and mortgages to pay for houses and cars, very few have family wealth to fall back on and label themselves something different to "working class" if indeed they label themselves at all, and there is the crux - I don't know anyone who labels themselves as being of a certain class at all these days and its been a long time since I saw a Labour party candidate refer to themselves as the party for the working class.

Actually, at the time the programme was made, it wasn't racist at all, it was a comedy that played on the differences between two characters using commonplace attitudes and situations.

We have labelled it racist in light of latter day viewpoint.

Your right, it is viewed completely different with the benefit of hindsight. The Jack Smethurst character was probably typical of his day in calling his neighbour a 'nig nog', but it was not done with malice in mind, equally the Rudolph Walker character called him 'whitey' in a derogative way. I recall being in a British ex-pats club in Mombasa in 1973 and some of the older members referred to the locals as 'fuzzy wuzzies' which I doubt would even be uttered these days. I t may look bad with hindsight, but it beats the hell out of some of the disgusting, racist language spouted these days, which usually is delivered with hatred.

My father in law in Liverpool has a couple of mates called Tommy, one is black, the other is white, when the black Tommy rang the house one day my wife answered the phone and was shocked to hear him say 'tell Billy, Tommy the coon rang', rightly or wrongly that his how they distinguish themselves, they are in their 70's and have been mates since they were kids and I know that they would die for each other. I suppose the professionally offended will view this as abhorrent, but I doubt their is a racist bone in either of them.

Corpl. Jones on Dad's Army regularly referred to the fuzzy wuzzies. Dad's Army though is a national treasure, but apparently Love Thy Neighbour is not. Funny old world.

By working classes are they talking about people on benefits and working up to say 13k?

Anyway

The trouble i find that muddies the waters is 50%(possibly slightly more) of what you hear is false, simply made up by right wing nut jobs trying to justify a point and unfortunately 50% (possibly less) is also true, but people who have all ready set their stall out reject it all outright as nonsense or believe it all as gospel.

The White working class (WWC for ease) seem to be a mixture of honest hard working yet low paid people, lazy workshy feckless people, disabled people unable to work or working at limited capacity and a small mix of people capable and able to work but for some reason(confidence, poor CV, some form of discrimination) can't get a job.

They all have have some form of axe to grind and can't seem to sift through the truth and utter ballcocks around them.
It doesn't help when people of better standing with zero to little understanding of their situation constantly dictate to them how they are talking rubbish and all their problems are either made up or of their own doing. It's not helpful and they feel let down and none of them feel like they are being listened to.
Some of them have genuine reasons to be angry at he world around them and some unfortunately are just blatantly ignorant.

Councils in London (Wandsworth at least) have discriminated on social housing, I've had first hand experience of this so i don't need someone on here telling me "they can't do that, you're talking rubbish" well they have. I even think there was a story about Tower Hamlets that made the papers backing up my point.
There have been people born in this country in desperate need of a home and have been waiting for years for someone to then come over and be granted a home almost instantly, how is this deemed fair? I don't aim my dismay at anyone who comes over and is in need of a home but how are they prioritised over a British citizen?

It doesn't effect me anymore but there are people out there in the situation and feel like they are being treated differently, surely we should be treated as human beings rather than sticking a flag on everyone and giving more credence to one flag more than another.

Love Thy Neighbour was awful! Typical crap 70s comedy. Me and my mates watched it all the time though. Nina Baden Semper was a doll!

Except that Dad's Army portrays a group of old men hopelessly out of touch with the situation and the times they live in, never mind the time in which it was made. The "fuzzy wuzzy" comments are meant to date the character and show in a very obvious way to a 1970's audience that even though the war was a very long time ago and from a different era, he is from a very much earlier era and would be completely out of his depth if the Germans ever did invade.

Love Thy Neighbour is an exposition of perceived differences between white people and black people in a contemporary context.

I think you would have to take a twenty mile detour to avoid seeing the difference.

Quote ="vbfg"Except that Dad's Army portrays a group of old men hopelessly out of touch with the situation and the times they live in, never mind the time in which it was made. The "fuzzy wuzzy" comments are meant to date the character and show in a very obvious way to a 1970's audience that even though the war was a very long time ago and from a different era, he is from a very much earlier era and would be completely out of his depth if the Germans ever did invade.'" In Australia, the people from PNG who helped the australian troops on the Kokoda trail in WW2 are affectionately know to this day as the: Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels. Here's a poem for you: www.anzacday.org.au/anzacservice ... ywuzzy.htm So, this thread has lagged. No-one took the subject on as to why a faction of British society feel they aren't being represented. Did anyone even read the report? Yet people still: Called an entire group of people a vile, prejudicial name like "White scum underclass", or have a go and try and be funny (and failing) at an entire nation suggesting that our kiwi friends were backwards. It's funny how threads unwind. Do these comments highlight people's own prejudices? Or, the amount of distain, hate or pre-judgement of others that people are all capable of. So, does anyone represent the white working class in the UK anymore like they used to? And, if they did, would that help matters with regards to the rise of the right wing in the UK and indeed parts of Europe where it appears that some of these so called "white scum underclass" appear to be leaning to politically, whereas in the past, the left wing, would have catered for some of them. Could anyone volunteer their impressions of what's going on?

Quote ="vbfg"Except that Dad's Army portrays a group of old men hopelessly out of touch with the situation and the times they live in, never mind the time in which it was made. The "fuzzy wuzzy" comments are meant to date the character and show in a very obvious way to a 1970's audience that even though the war was a very long time ago and from a different era, he is from a very much earlier era and would be completely out of his depth if the Germans ever did invade.'" In Australia, the people from PNG who helped the australian troops on the Kokoda trail in WW2 are affectionately know to this day as the: Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels. Here's a poem for you: www.anzacday.org.au/anzacservice ... ywuzzy.htm So, this thread has lagged. No-one took the subject on as to why a faction of British society feel they aren't being represented. Did anyone even read the report? Yet people still: Called an entire group of people a vile, prejudicial name like "White scum underclass", or have a go and try and be funny (and failing) at an entire nation suggesting that our kiwi friends were backwards. It's funny how threads unwind. Do these comments highlight people's own prejudices? Or, the amount of distain, hate or pre-judgement of others that people are all capable of. So, does anyone represent the white working class in the UK anymore like they used to? And, if they did, would that help matters with regards to the rise of the right wing in the UK and indeed parts of Europe where it appears that some of these so called "white scum underclass" appear to be leaning to politically, whereas in the past, the left wing, would have catered for some of them. Could anyone volunteer their impressions of what's going on?

Quote ="Rooster Booster"In Australia, the people from PNG who helped the australian troops on the Kokoda trail in WW2 are affectionately know to this day as the: Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels. Here's a poem for you: www.anzacday.org.au/anzacservice ... ywuzzy.htm So, this thread has lagged. No-one took the subject on as to why a faction of British society feel they aren't being represented. Did anyone even read the report? Yet people still: Called an entire group of people a vile, prejudicial name like "White scum underclass", or have a go and try and be funny (and failing) at an entire nation suggesting that our kiwi friends were backwards. It's funny how threads unwind. Do these comments highlight people's own prejudices? Or, the amount of distain, hate or pre-judgement of others that people are all capable of. So, does anyone represent the white working class in the UK anymore like they used to? And, if they did, would that help matters with regards to the rise of the right wing in the UK and indeed parts of Europe where it appears that some of these so called "white scum underclass" appear to be leaning to politically, whereas in the past, the left wing, would have catered for some of them. Could anyone volunteer their impressions of what's going on?'" Far from "lagging" I think you had some perfectly sensible answers. They may not have been the answers you were looking for, they may not have been as inflamatory as you were hoping for, but you got some sensible answers, the moral may be, don't believe everything you read in newspapers especially ones that are reporting second hand news two months after the event - for your information the woman in the original case was apprehended and remanded in prison over christmas, such behaviour being illegal.

Quote ="Rooster Booster"In Australia, the people from PNG who helped the australian troops on the Kokoda trail in WW2 are affectionately know to this day as the: Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels. Here's a poem for you: www.anzacday.org.au/anzacservice ... ywuzzy.htm So, this thread has lagged. No-one took the subject on as to why a faction of British society feel they aren't being represented. Did anyone even read the report? Yet people still: Called an entire group of people a vile, prejudicial name like "White scum underclass", or have a go and try and be funny (and failing) at an entire nation suggesting that our kiwi friends were backwards. It's funny how threads unwind. Do these comments highlight people's own prejudices? Or, the amount of distain, hate or pre-judgement of others that people are all capable of. So, does anyone represent the white working class in the UK anymore like they used to? And, if they did, would that help matters with regards to the rise of the right wing in the UK and indeed parts of Europe where it appears that some of these so called "white scum underclass" appear to be leaning to politically, whereas in the past, the left wing, would have catered for some of them. Could anyone volunteer their impressions of what's going on?'" Far from "lagging" I think you had some perfectly sensible answers. They may not have been the answers you were looking for, they may not have been as inflamatory as you were hoping for, but you got some sensible answers, the moral may be, don't believe everything you read in newspapers especially ones that are reporting second hand news two months after the event - for your information the woman in the original case was apprehended and remanded in prison over christmas, such behaviour being illegal.

What's going on (according to that report) is that there are white people who perceive that they are badly done-to in terms of housing etc and that "immigrants" are getting unfair advantage.

Note that word "perception", it is not the same as "fact".

Personally, I don't see the need for anyone to represent the "white working class", I just wish someone would represent the "working class".

You have just highlighted the percieved injustice some people feel towards the authorities. This woman was remanded in custody apparently for her own protection but 4 Somalian women were given community sentences for a Racist attack on a white woman. The world of the judiciary is truly frightening at times

The judiciary do make one wonder sometimes.
But that's not a reason for "someone to stand up for for white working class", it's a reason to smarten up the judiciary, maybe.

The judiciary are far far too much up their own backsides most of the time to worry about anyone irrespective of colour/creed/percieved injustices etc. But the right wing nut jobs and some of the press play on incidents like the one I highlighted to grab attention.

It's hardly surprising there is – among some – a sense of being unrepresented by mainstream politicians. Nobody has addressed one of the core effects of the decision to de-industrialise – the removal of large numbers of skilled, manual jobs that paid well and the lack of anything to replace them.

No mainstream political party has realistically addressed that.

Yes but we'd be here for hours just trying to type things up i.e. it's far too complex to discuss in detail but here are a few points I think are relevant.

Education
Change in labour market i.e. quality of jobs, availability, wage, stability, from skilled manufacturing to McJobs
Poverty
Failure to engage with political processes
No representation within the national political process
No political choice when voting
Differences in self-empowerment
Expectation/entitlement
Psychological impact of all these issues on persons/families i.e. confidence, self-esteem, stress, depression, mental health, physical health, violence,
Persistent approaches taken by successive governments to divide communities e.g. sexism, racism, homophobia, immigration, public/private sector,
Destruction of society
Shift in society towards individuality without awareness of social responsilibity
Patriarchal system that prevents emotionally mature discussion devoid of political ideology
Class snobbery
Media representations/presentations of people and issues
Positive role models
Simon Cowell

I could go on.

A blinkin' good list to start with, though.

But no-one actually let me know who was representing the WWC. What's with the suggestions mate? Guessing how you think I think, or what answer I was after. I want to know what's going on back home. What the feel is there. Being condescending or rude about an entire nation. What's the go there? Do you feel superior to them?

A question for you personally now then. Would you be prepared to talk to that woman and discuss what her issues or her problems were?

twas.

Simon Cowell clinched it for me.








(I feel an oooerrrr missus coming on.)

Thanks for that.

So no-one has taken over from Old Labour as such? Is that right Mintball? This may be the issue. I have a feeling that people appear to be heading right, because they feel that no-one is prepared to take on their concerns through fear of being labelled racist.

I strongly believe that we have to discuss things, intelligently with all walks of life, with all parties, with all allegiances, to try and just get on. No easy task I know.

No I wouldn't waste my time on her.

Several people tried to talk to her and discuss her issues in that video but she met them with abuse because they were black, the only time she shut up was when a white person tried to reason with her.

I'd happily let the NHS pay for a psychologist to talk to her and discuss her issues because I think that is the level that she is at now, if she was invited onto this forum you would not get a sensible discussion from her.

To address one of your earlier questions there is a political party that caters for her type, its the BNP, thats precisely where her opinions came from.

Before this develops into the immigration argument here's a couple of articles from last week about the issue.

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/immigration-does-not-cause-unemployment-6287404.htmlStudy refutes claim that foreign nationals are depriving British-born workers of jobs[/url

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-admits-eu-migrants-do-not-hurt-british-jobs-market-6287850.htmlInflux of non-EU workers linked to 'native' job losses, but even these are only temporary, say experts[/url

There are parties on the left that have more traditional left stances, but the left in the UK is – as in many other places – fractured. There's no one party that, even now, comes close to challenging Labour.

But Labour, when in government, continued the basic political-economic philosophy of neo-liberalism that had initially been put in place at the beginning of the 1980s by the Conservative government of the time (which included de-industrialisation as a key tenet). New Labour continued with deregulation and privatisation.

The so-called 'third way' was really (as I see it) about using improved public services (some via privatisation and schemes such as the Private Finance Initiative – which has a toxic legacy) to try to balance out some of the problems being caused by those same policies. But a fair bit of that was simply making up for the state that services were in by 1997 – people dying on hospital trolleys; schools in a state of serious disrepair etc.

In a lot of way, it's understandable that Labour went down this route. The electorate had already rejected Michael Foot's much more traditional Labour Party, plus the version under Neil Kinnock. Having said that, perhaps something more like the former would have been elected anyway in 1997, given that it was less about a Labour victory and more about the country simply having had enough of the Conservatives. And of course, we never really had the chance to know what John Smith would have been like.

I don't think that the Labour government under Blair had any idea of how to deal with that loss of so much decently paid, skilled manual work. He was obsessed with the idea of the 'e-economy', for instance, presumably believing that this would solve all our problems and provide a way forward.

One of the problems with the idea of de-industrialisation (and letting the developing world do all that manufacturing stuff in order to develop their economies) is that it leaves huge swathes of people without comparable labour, income and, indeed, dignity. I had a couple of trips to Glasgow last year for work: on both occasions, because of where the hotel was, I had to use cabs to get anywhere. Most of the cabbies are former shipbuilders. They're not workshy – but they are utterly brassed off at having had a skilled job stripped away from them, finding themselves on greatly reduced incomes – and where those incomes are reducing even further, gradually but steadily. What alternative was – or is there – for them?

Add into this mix the rise of consumerism – indeed, the retail sector is massively important for the country's economy as a whole now (the service sector accounts for approximately 75% of the economy, if I remember correctly). So in other words, we actually need people to buy things. I think the last 30 years has seen a real increase in what may see as 'aspirationalism' – but a great deal of that has been about effectively saying that rampant consumerism is good. And with it, if you want more things, you have to get a better job. But where are all these 'better' jobs? And what is wrong with any job in the first place, so that some people deride people in lowly jobs? Even work, in other words, can be derided.

I think Mike made a number of very good points. One of those is snobbery. I touched on that in the previous paragraph, when I mentioned the snobbery against certain types of work. Well, that's always been around, but I do think it's got worse – at exactly a time when more people are having to take lowly work.

The entire 'chav' thing is really quite depressing. On the one hand, it's arguably an attitude toward what would classically have been known as the lumpen proletariat (so yes, the 'workshy', the 'feckless' etc), but it's also been code for something much wider. I've seen, on here, people being condemned as 'chavs' etc simply for wearing the 'wrong' jewellry – how dare they wear an Argos clown pendant – even when they're actually in work. Shopping at Iceland is another mark of someone to be abused.

It seems to me that, one of the results of a 'greed is good' consumerist society is a new strata of people to be derided: working people who don't dress the 'right' way or buy the 'right' things or buy enough etc. And of course, the internet makes it easier to spread such a culture of nastiness.

There are loads of other things I could add – many expanding on the points that Mike made – but that's quite enough at present.

Suffice it to say that we need a serious economic alternative that doesn't just work for a very small number in our society.