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Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Last night on Question Time Labour's Chuka Umunna let slip that seemingly Labour thinks that the Eu never intended everyone to be able to go wherever or whenever, but just wanted freedom of movement of "workers". Pressed on this he would say he had had recent talks with representatives of other countries and hinted they agreed, pressed further he was cagey but the upshot was that Labour woould argue there should only be free movement of people with a job, leaving one job in one country to take up a post in another. It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25678829
It sounded very muddled and almsot makeing up policy as you go along, but what seems clear is Labour is against anyone without a job being able to enter the UK and claim any benefits; and that the only free movement of workers Labour approves of is people moving from one job elsewhere to an equivalent-or-better-skill job here.'"
It certainly is muddled. After all, Chuka's government was a signatory to the 2004 EU Free Movement of Persons Directive, the first clause of which states
"Citizenship of the Union confers on every citizen of the Union a primary and individual right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaty and to the measures adopted to give it effect."
Nothing about it just being workers on a "one in, one out" basis. They had the chance to put "workers only" and even in capitals, bold and underlined, but they didn't, presumably as that wasn't what was intended when the document was drafted, discussed and agreed. "Every citizen" is pretty broad and clear in its meaning.
His government also introduced the "Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006" which sets out, effectively, how the 2004 Directive will be implemented and describes a "qualified person" (i.e. someone who benefits under EU law and free movement provisions) as including jobseekers.
When some of the 2.2m Brits around Europe start coming home on the basis that they also aren't workers in Spain or Germany or France, he might find himself in even more of a muddle.
I'm all for someone changing their minds about a policy, but to seemingly state that this was never intended is either, as you kindly put it, muddled, or downright disingenuous. It also shows that while immigration is a hot topic, those making the loudest sounds are the ones who know least about it. |
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Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Last night on Question Time Labour's Chuka Umunna let slip that seemingly Labour thinks that the Eu never intended everyone to be able to go wherever or whenever, but just wanted freedom of movement of "workers". Pressed on this he would say he had had recent talks with representatives of other countries and hinted they agreed, pressed further he was cagey but the upshot was that Labour woould argue there should only be free movement of people with a job, leaving one job in one country to take up a post in another. It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25678829
It sounded very muddled and almsot makeing up policy as you go along, but what seems clear is Labour is against anyone without a job being able to enter the UK and claim any benefits; and that the only free movement of workers Labour approves of is people moving from one job elsewhere to an equivalent-or-better-skill job here.'"
It certainly is muddled. After all, Chuka's government was a signatory to the 2004 EU Free Movement of Persons Directive, the first clause of which states
"Citizenship of the Union confers on every citizen of the Union a primary and individual right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaty and to the measures adopted to give it effect."
Nothing about it just being workers on a "one in, one out" basis. They had the chance to put "workers only" and even in capitals, bold and underlined, but they didn't, presumably as that wasn't what was intended when the document was drafted, discussed and agreed. "Every citizen" is pretty broad and clear in its meaning.
His government also introduced the "Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006" which sets out, effectively, how the 2004 Directive will be implemented and describes a "qualified person" (i.e. someone who benefits under EU law and free movement provisions) as including jobseekers.
When some of the 2.2m Brits around Europe start coming home on the basis that they also aren't workers in Spain or Germany or France, he might find himself in even more of a muddle.
I'm all for someone changing their minds about a policy, but to seemingly state that this was never intended is either, as you kindly put it, muddled, or downright disingenuous. It also shows that while immigration is a hot topic, those making the loudest sounds are the ones who know least about it. | |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work.'"
Isn't that exactly the case in countries like Australia, NZ and the USA? No one, skilled or otherwise, can demand a working visa in those countries. A doctor wouldn't be able to go there as a truck driver even if there was a shortage of truck drivers. Doctors can get visa's to be doctors and truck drivers visa's to be truck drivers IF their professions are on a skill shortage list.
In general they don't let anyone in without a job just to look for any old job except students on student working visas. I think you may be able to get enough points to get into NZ if you are in certain professions but don't have a job offer when you apply but you would still be going as someone expected to find a job in these defined professions.
I don't see what is wrong with this if that is what Labour is proposing. If there are labour shortages in low skilled jobs then they would end up on the list of defined skills the UK wanted and people in the rest of the EU could apply.
What am I missing? | | | |
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| Quote ="DaveO"...
What am I missing?'"
You're not missing anything, it would just need the entire principle of freedom of movement within the EU to be torn up and reversed, so that absolutely nobody - not a single person - can come to live/work/look for work here without a visa, As opposed to everybody being free to come any time they like, without restriction of any kind. | | |
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| Quote ="DaveO"Isn't that exactly the case in countries like Australia, NZ and the USA? No one, skilled or otherwise, can demand a working visa in those countries. A doctor wouldn't be able to go there as a truck driver even if there was a shortage of truck drivers. Doctors can get visa's to be doctors and truck drivers visa's to be truck drivers IF their professions are on a skill shortage list.
In general they don't let anyone in without a job just to look for any old job except students on student working visas. I think you may be able to get enough points to get into NZ if you are in certain professions but don't have a job offer when you apply but you would still be going as someone expected to find a job in these defined professions.
I don't see what is wrong with this if that is what Labour is proposing. If there are labour shortages in low skilled jobs then they would end up on the list of defined skills the UK wanted and people in the rest of the EU could apply.
What am I missing?'"
The point successive governments have made is that low skilled immigration from outside the EU is not desirable as there are supposedly workers within the EU who can do those jobs. So we only want Indian doctors or American IT specialists, not Chinese street sweepers.
Technically EU immigration isn't immigration due to the free movement principles (and EU nationals aren't subject to immigration rules) so there's nothing to stop low skilled "immigration " from Europe. If Labour are proposing to apply similar rules to EU citizens as to others, it will drive the proverbial coach and horses through the legislation and EU directives. Other EU states could do the same, with implications for EU wide employers.
All of it smacks of tinkering to keep the Mail etc onside. We're heading for disaster when any political party allows the likes of Dacre, Desmond et al to dictate policies. | | |
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| Quote ="Chris28"The point successive governments have made is that low skilled immigration from outside the EU is not desirable as there are supposedly workers within the EU who can do those jobs. So we only want Indian doctors or American IT specialists, not Chinese street sweepers. '"
That may be true but I am not sure what that has got to do with Labour's position. I thought they seemed to be saying we don't want people turning up without a job. Unless I misunderstood if a Bulgarian road sweeper arranged a job sweeping roads in Chester, he could still come.
Quote Technically EU immigration isn't immigration due to the free movement principles (and EU nationals aren't subject to immigration rules) so there's nothing to stop low skilled "immigration " from Europe. If Labour are proposing to apply similar rules to EU citizens as to others, it will drive the proverbial coach and horses through the legislation and EU directives. Other EU states could do the same, with implications for EU wide employers.'"
I am sure it would be a bit of a mindfield legistativley but I don't see why it would prevent say a company like Airbus doing as it does now and recruit across the EU for jobs anywhere in any of its geographic locations.
Quote All of it smacks of tinkering to keep the Mail etc onside. We're heading for disaster when any political party allows the likes of Dacre, Desmond et al to dictate policies.'"
I am sure that has something (quite alot!) to do with it but opinion polls suggest they are going to have to have a seemingly credible alternative to simplistic blanket bans that does actually set out to limit migration to the UK in some way.
That is the reality of the politics we face at the moment and I don't think taking the high ground and arguing against public opinion on this issue is going to get them elected.
I think things are fine as they are myself and people have been brainwashed against free movement of labour but I don't see how the Labour proposals as I understand them would make a huge difference other than prevent unemployed people coming here on spec. | | | |
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